'65 Standard

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Six Volt
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Re: '65 Standard

Post by Six Volt » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:03 pm

That was an excellent tutorial. After reviewing all the pictures and information I think I need to either have my welder checked by a pro, or just get a better welder. If I'm ever going to even try rudimentary welding, I'm going to have to start with equipment that works. The line from my gas bottle to my welder may have a small leak and the gauges on my tank don't seem to be working. I seem to remember Kirk finding it years ago and me doing a "Sean" fix on it. I've probably welded stuff without gas the last few times without even realizing it. The bottle could be empty! No wonder all the splatters.

Another thing is heat. That trick with the air is helpful. Seems obvious, but I never used that. Probably why panels I've welded have warped. Those little clips are ingenious. I've never used those and hence have never been able to handle butt welds. I've always done lap welds with a few holes, then tried to run a bead along the line where the panels overlap. Not good.

Where do you place the ground clamp from the welder? Can it be clamped anywhere on the bus or does it have to be in proximity to the metal welded?

Great information Bruce and thanks for posting all the pictures. Very informative.
It's me, Sean
1957 Beetle Oval Sedan 36 Horse 6 volt
1959 Panel 40 Horse 6 volt

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ohiowesty
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Re: '65 Standard

Post by ohiowesty » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:40 pm

I enjoyed the thorough write up! Can you partially substitute welding by flaring the exterior skin and using panel adhesive with just a few weld tacks to hold it in place? I'm thinking that may save a day of work, assuming that the end result will hold up in the future.

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Dual Port
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Re: '65 Standard

Post by Dual Port » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:56 pm

Six Volt wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:03 pm
The bottle could be empty! No wonder all the splatters.
Where do you place the ground clamp from the welder? Can it be clamped anywhere on the bus or does it have to be in proximity to the metal welded?
1. Always flush the line before the first weld of the day, this is by holding the gun to your ear suicide-style and pulling the trigger. You should hear a "whoosh" of gas coming out. I think I use 75/25 but have to look.

2. Bring your rig out to the shop and we'll figger out what's wrong with it. I have extra full tanks.

3. In a perfect world you'd have the ground nearby but I had it on the engine lid hinge since it has no paint on it. :o Electrically, it can be on any clean piece of metal on the bus. It will ground fine through the door hinges. :D
Bruce Amacker
'66 Deluxe Bus
'65 Standard Bus

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Dual Port
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Re: '65 Standard

Post by Dual Port » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:00 pm

ohiowesty wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:40 pm
I enjoyed the thorough write up! Can you partially substitute welding by flaring the exterior skin and using panel adhesive with just a few weld tacks to hold it in place? I'm thinking that may save a day of work, assuming that the end result will hold up in the future.
Kirk and I discussed this without a clear conclusion. In theory..........

And they have regular panel bond, and super fast panel bond just for this that sets up in 15 minutes. How about trying it and letting us know how it works?
Bruce Amacker
'66 Deluxe Bus
'65 Standard Bus

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Karl Kombi
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Re: '65 Standard

Post by Karl Kombi » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:47 pm

Fantastic procedural review of not only butt welding, but also of replacement part modification necessary with aftermarket stuff! I'm glad you take the time to take as many pics as you do as the job goes along. :D

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ohiowesty
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Re: '65 Standard

Post by ohiowesty » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:47 am

Dual Port wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:00 pm

Kirk and I discussed this without a clear conclusion. In theory..........

And they have regular panel bond, and super fast panel bond just for this that sets up in 15 minutes. How about trying it and letting us know how it works?
I would speculate that the expansion and contraction rate of the bonding material is not exactly that of the metal. Therefore, bonding may work at intersections of planes, but it might warp a panel if the seam is say in the middle of it. The bonding material would have to retain some kind of elasticity to compensate for frigid or super hot weather. There should be a minimum number of weld tacks on the bonded seam that would probably stop them from moving relative to each other, and prevent the cracking of bondo/filler hiding the seam. BTW, the 3M panel bond can be spot welded. Also, the friggin applicator gun is $100!!!!!!!!!!!

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Dual Port
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Re: '65 Standard

Post by Dual Port » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:47 am

ohiowesty wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:47 am


I would speculate that the expansion and contraction rate of the bonding material is not exactly that of the metal. Therefore, bonding may work at intersections of planes, but it might warp a panel if the seam is say in the middle of it. The bonding material would have to retain some kind of elasticity to compensate for frigid or super hot weather. There should be a minimum number of weld tacks on the bonded seam that would probably stop them from moving relative to each other, and prevent the cracking of bondo/filler hiding the seam. BTW, the 3M panel bond can be spot welded. Also, the friggin applicator gun is $100!!!!!!!!!!!
1. Using panel bond at the OEM factories has been popular building car bodies and pickup beds for decades, this is not new technology. I'm pretty sure they use it both in the middle of a panel as well as at the intersection of planes because I remember seeing this during factory tours of many mfrs. It's relatively new to me because I'm old school and not a bodyman, but I'd be open to trying it as long as I was not liable for the outcome. Suppliers say with a certain overlap (1/4-1/2"?) the bond is stronger than steel or welding.

2. I'd be reluctant to combine both welding and bonding in the same seam, I think the heat would leave some kind of weak point near the weld. If there were no easy way to clamp a seam you could run self-drilling screws through it until the agent cured, then remove the screws and fill the holes with bond/FG/epoxy.

3. Both Chuckie and I have panel bond guns, and yes, they're not cheap. Mine is a Sem and it was about $90. Chuck has several including 3M guns worth several hundred. I stock a couple tubes of the panel bond at the shop- also not cheap.
Bruce Amacker
'66 Deluxe Bus
'65 Standard Bus

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Six Volt
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Re: '65 Standard

Post by Six Volt » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:39 pm

Aditional Q's.

You reference a "spot" welder for the inner "plug" welds. What exactly is a "spot" welder? I know. It probably welds spots. :lol: But how exactly is it different than a MIG? And why couldn't you just use the MIG to "fill" those holes? Wouldn't that have been enough?

When you reference "mud," what are you using to fill that 1/8 " gap? Are you using Rage? Or something else? Do you then go over it with something else? I should probably search your earier build because I seem to remember you covered it (pardon the pun) there.
It's me, Sean
1957 Beetle Oval Sedan 36 Horse 6 volt
1959 Panel 40 Horse 6 volt

toolbox
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Re: '65 Standard

Post by toolbox » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:24 pm

Six Volt wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:39 pm
Aditional Q's.

You reference a "spot" welder for the inner "plug" welds. What exactly is a "spot" welder? I know. It probably welds spots. :lol: But how exactly is it different than a MIG? And why couldn't you just use the MIG to "fill" those holes? Wouldn't that have been enough.
Read these words see the pictures....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spot_welding

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Dual Port
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Re: '65 Standard

Post by Dual Port » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:25 am

Six Volt wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:39 pm
Aditional Q's.

You reference a "spot" welder for the inner "plug" welds. What exactly is a "spot" welder? I know. It probably welds spots. :lol: But how exactly is it different than a MIG? And why couldn't you just use the MIG to "fill" those holes?

That's what plug welding is.

Wouldn't that have been enough?

Yes, of course.

When you reference "mud," what are you using to fill that 1/8 " gap? Are you using Rage? Or something else? Do you then go over it with something else? I should probably search your earier build because I seem to remember you covered it (pardon the pun) there.
In addition to what Ted wrote:

Being that I don't have a spot welder I drilled the holes and used the Mig to fill them, AKA "plug weld". Spot welding is quicker with less heat issues. Plug welding is probably stronger as the weld is much larger, but in the case of body panels either is plenty strong enough. Spot welding can only be done where the SW can reach, like on an edge, I used Chuckie's on the lower rockers on both busses. I returned the SW to Chuck or I would have used it again on the lower cargo door edges as it would have fit well. His SW weighs a frigging TON and is hard to handle, you have to set it on a roller seat to use it as you can't hold it under a rocker seam (or at least I can't). HF has both 110v and 220v SW, someday I'll buy one.

As for mud, I've used the expensive stuff like Rage and the cheap generic stuff and do not see a lot of difference besides 3-4x the price, so I'm using the cheap stuff ($15/gal). Supposedly the cheap stuff cracks over time but I've not seen that on Bus 1.
Bruce Amacker
'66 Deluxe Bus
'65 Standard Bus

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