Austin's 1977 Tintop Camper

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Kooper271
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Austin's 1977 Tintop Camper

Post by Kooper271 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:43 am

Pictures coming later...

Hi all! My girlfriend and I purchased a 1977 Camper a couple of weeks ago. Boy, there is a lot of work to be done.

Pictures:
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Kooper271
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Re: Austin's 1977 Tintop Camper

Post by Kooper271 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:45 am

I'm going to start with what is currently on my mind, the engine rebuild.

Using this part list as a basis, is there anything else I should consider? Any guesses as to what machine shop fees would be? (Already have the heads figured out so no need to include them.)
chuckspence wrote:Mike Kever Kombi asked me to send him a list of the parts necessary to rebuild a 2 liter fuel injected type 4 engine, here it is:

1) Gasket set 029198009,

2) Main bearing set (Std) 021198481A if possible find the Silverline brand these still come with the steel backed center bearing,

3) Connecting rod bearings (2 liter, Std) 039105701,

4) Cam bearings 021198541,

5) Piston & cylinder set (2 liter) 029198075 or K70980, buy the Brazilian Maile P&C set, do an internet search and you should be able to find these for about $350 with free shipping, Try EuroPortPart ($338 free ship)

6) Main seal 029105245B, There have been issues with the OE German seals not working of late, an alternative seal is the SKF/Chicago Rawhide 29526 which seems to correct the problem.

7) Crank seal (fan end) 021105247A,

8) Camshaft, (solid, Std) these have gotten hard to find and costly from OE manufacturers, European Motorworks make their own for $99 each P/N 054-106A, (hydraulic) 054-106AH, order direct or thru Bill Webner,

9) Lifters (solid) another OE part that seems to have disappeared of late, Scat Enterprises Manufactures their Lube-A-Lobe solid lifters P/N 20091 and sell them for about what a set of OE lifters used to cost.
Hydraulic, 022109309, Cip1 has sets of OE hydraulic lifters on sale now for $87.99 to $95.99 great price!

10) Push rod tubes (8) 021109335C,

11) Camshaft to cam gear screws, 5/16-24 x 1/2" low-profile alloy socket head screws, McMaster-Carr P/N 92220A231, I reuse the gear off the old camshaft and save $40, just grind the heads off the rivets, drive them out with a punch and drill the gear holes to 5/16", the self locking flange head bolts sold everywhere for cam gears have too tall of a head to clear the oil pump and need to be ground down to almost nothing to work, easier to use low profile screws, and on the subject of type 4 camshafts & lifters, DO NOT reuse your 40 year old camshaft and lifters, type 4 cam/lifter geometry is different from type 1 engines, I have seen type 4 cams wear to round with no lift remaining after being reused a few times.

12) Dip stick bellows 021119245, get a new one, your is shot.

13) Motor mounts (2) 021199231C.

Most of these parts can be purchased just about anywhere you can find them, Mick at Euclid Foreign Motors can hunt down almost anything, And so can Bill Webner, Next post I'll start on type 4 cylinder heads, and why they're the big dollar part of type 4 engine rebuilds.

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Last edited by Kooper271 on Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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wwebner
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Re: Austin's 1977 Tintop Camper

Post by wwebner » Thu Jun 23, 2016 12:41 pm

I should add,while shopping for P&C's check our AA performance. They are also my source for Silverline bearings. Feel free to contact me as I am a dealer for many of the sources for T4 parts.
http://aapistons.com/

toolbox
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Re: Austin's 1977 Tintop Camper

Post by toolbox » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:19 pm

wwebner wrote:I should add,while shopping for P&C's check our AA performance. They are also my source for Silverline bearings. Feel free to contact me as I am a dealer for many of the sources for T4 parts.
http://aapistons.com/

Austin,

Definitely take Bill up on this offer, he and Chuck are the people to get with. You could always drop your old motor, some cash and your girlfriend off at Chuck's and in a week or so get a sweet running FI motor and possibly your girlfriend back.

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Mike Kever Kombi
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Re: Austin's 1977 Tintop Camper

Post by Mike Kever Kombi » Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:59 pm

I'll add to the list in a second, but first....

Slow down champ. You don't know what you are dealing with to even know if you need any, let all of those parts.

That list was generated only AFTER I had completely tore the top 1/2 of my engine down. A thorough inspection of parts is needed before you just blindly start buying parts for an engine that may not need to be rebuilt. Check to see if everything is within wear limits and tolerances, and if it is, and if the engine runs fine after freshening up, then why worry about rebuilding before driving.

I have ordered all the parts previously listed, and still have not redone my motor. I've probably put 5-10k miles on the bus since that post. I regularly put a couple few hundred miles a week on the bus during the summer (warm weather).

These motors can be extremely expensive to completely rebuild. If you do not have the stomach or wallet to take on the task, then a refresh may be the smarter course to take at first. All too often people come in guns blazing with pie eyed dreams, bite off more than they can chew, and never finish what they started, and never get to drive their vans. Do not fool yourself and say " that'll never happen to me", because they all said the same thing too.

Just to get the can up and running and stopping somewhat reliably you are looking at an outlay of $2000-$5000 most likely. Get it up and running, then decide on what kind of new engine you want, if any.

Of course your engine may me whooped, and well beyond its serviceable life, but until you get down to brass tacks and do the measurements and tests you will not know for certain. Just because it's old, dirty or because it sat doesn't automatically make it bad. More than a few of the more knowledgable folks on here will tell you that an old OE part is vastly superior to a repop. That goes for a large portion of components. Plus if it has been off the road for 15+ years, that's just that much less wear and tear it has seen.

Take the cost of new parts, and the intricacies of these engines, and the fact that you have 0 experience working on them into consideration before you jump of the deep end. Try to find someone who has experience and learn everything you can. Watching a YouTube video or reading a post does not a mechanic make. These cars are relatively easy to work on, once you know what you are doing. With the scarcity of certain parts, and the prices they can fetch, the learning curve can be both steep and costly.

Again welcome to the club, and don't be afraid to ask questions.



Parts

I assume you have all your factory FI components, and in good working order?

Exhaust. Will be dependent on heads/heater boxes. If you plan on factory heat you will also need

Heater boxes, th style will depend on heads (ports). If you do not have usable heater boxes they can be picked up from danske for about $400 each, or about $159 used and crusty if you can find them.

Heads. I know you said you have Delzani in mind, and he is the go to guy for type 4 head work around here. Excellent excellent work, and super fast turn around. That quality comes at a price. Usually 250-400 a head depending on what needs done. Brand new AMC heads run about $350 each. The new ones from Spain do not seem to have the valve-spring problems that plagued the older versions. Just an option to consider.

Since we are already about 3-4K down the rabbit hole of new parts let's talk crank. Either get the old one machined and counter weighted, or buy a new counter weighted crank. Cost 250-400 depending.

Flywheel will need to be machined and stepped if you have gone through this much trouble. $70 give or take


New clutch, throw out bearing and pressure plate for the newly machined flywheel, 160ish from mick at euclid foreign.

Put the crank assembly in a box and send it out to be dynamically balanced. $250 or so.

No sense putting this thing back together crusty. Stainless steel hardware, $30 or so from McMaster.

Fuel pump is fine. They either work or they don't. You will need a new block filter though. Again, Mick at Euclid foreign.

All your misc sealants, compounds, anti seize etc $85 or so.

Break in oil, $50

Specialty tools: priceless

I am sure there are some things I forgot, and someone else can jump in to continue.

Maybe even Chuck, if he can figure out how to tie his shoe.
Last edited by Mike Kever Kombi on Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Mike Kever Kombi
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Re: Austin's 1977 Tintop Camper

Post by Mike Kever Kombi » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:07 pm

toolbox wrote:

Austin,

...You could always drop your old motor, some cash and your girlfriend off at Chuck's and in a week or so get your girlfriend back and a few months later get a sweet running FI motor.
As a mini Chuck protege I feel it necessary to correct that statement for accuracy.

Chuck and/or Bill will both do an absolutely outstanding job on an engine rebuild. A week long timeframe is an unrealistic expectation however
Mike

1961 Microbus
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1971 Super Beetle (1302s)


1975 Westfalia
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Sarcasm is just one of the many services I offer.

I like my water filtered through a bed of grains, cleansed by yeast, and preserved with hops.

Kooper271
Posts: 203
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Re: Austin's 1977 Tintop Camper

Post by Kooper271 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:23 pm

wwebner wrote:I should add,while shopping for P&C's check our AA performance. They are also my source for Silverline bearings. Feel free to contact me as I am a dealer for many of the sources for T4 parts.
http://aapistons.com/
Thanks! I had aapistons on my list as a supplier, but I will absolutely contact you when I get to that point.

toolbox wrote: Austin,

Definitely take Bill up on this offer, he and Chuck are the people to get with. You could always drop your old motor, some cash and your girlfriend off at Chuck's and in a week or so get a sweet running FI motor and possibly your girlfriend back.
Can I give him extra cash to keep the girlfriend? :lol:
I would definitely consider this though.


@ Mike, your reply is pretty long so I won't quote it here, but I appreciate the feedback! I know I was kind of jumping the gun here, but I'm still learning. This isn't my first restoration project (1990 Mazda RX7 was) but it will be my first time opening up a piston engine. Rotarys are much simpler!

I'm not afraid of the cost, or the hard work, or the time it will take. When I bought it I planned on spending $7-$9k minimum on it.

As far as parts go:

I do have two sets of factory FI equipment. Bought spares

I have two complete exhausts, minus one pair of heat boxes.

Heads: If mine are not repairable, I will probably bite the bullet and buy a new pair from Len Hoffman for ~$1450

Crank and flywheel were on my paper list already.

Clutch has been added to the list.

Balancing - on my paper list

Didn't think about the stainless steel hardware. Added.

Already have two fuel filters



My thinking behind it needing a rebuild is - I think - justified. This engine was ran hot. The engine seals are missing, some of the tin is broken/missing, the blower motor was disconnected and blowing hot air all over in the engine bay.

Thank you again for all the help!
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wwebner
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Re: Austin's 1977 Tintop Camper

Post by wwebner » Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:53 pm

Compression check and preferrably leakdown test FIRST. Doesn't cost anything. will give an idea of the condition of your motor compression wise. You did not mention what your current fuel delivery system is? If it a single carb :twisted: and has been run with that for any period of time,you may be headed for a complete rebuild. If your compression is good,you may want to consider fitting the FI and running the bus and save the rebuild until winter.

Kooper271
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Re: Austin's 1977 Tintop Camper

Post by Kooper271 » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:04 pm

wwebner wrote:Compression check and preferrably leakdown test FIRST. Doesn't cost anything. will give an idea of the condition of your motor compression wise. You did not mention what your current fuel delivery system is? If it a single carb :twisted: and has been run with that for any period of time,you may be headed for a complete rebuild. If your compression is good,you may want to consider fitting the FI and running the bus and save the rebuild until winter.
Currently installed is a non-working fuel injection system. Injectors likely need cleaned, tank definitely does. I believe the ECU and double relay work, but no idea about anything else. Again though it sat for 15 years with fuel in it so the tank needs cleaned out, vacuum and fuel lines need replaced, etc.

I think when I get this new solenoid installed and the FI working properly, it will start and I can do a compression test. I don't own a leakdown tester so I'll look for one. Can you leakdown test a cold engine?
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toolbox
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Re: Austin's 1977 Tintop Camper

Post by toolbox » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:30 pm

Kooper271 wrote:
wwebner wrote:I

Heads: If mine are not repairable, I will probably bite the bullet and buy a new pair from Len Hoffman for ~$1450
Buy the heads from Bill, supposedly the new AMC heads have valves you can use.

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